Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Saturday, May 3, 2014

Fanfest day two: Red wedding

At the end of the day, I am an EVE Online player, not a DUST 514 player. So I'm going to keep this short, and put it in its own post so that comments about it don't interfere with comments about the rest of Fanfest day two. But I'm also going to say what I think and let the chips fall where they may.

Now all of you know the thing that was revealed to the CSM many months ago.(1) DUST 514 is being developed for the PC platform; the unannounced implication is that the PS3 platform will be left to wither on the vine. But as the date for the announcement of this was pushed back and pushed back and pushed back, I finally said to a number of people in on the secret: "Delaying this announcement is going to blow back, and it's going to blow back huge." It quite frankly felt like CCP trying to scrape the last little bit of peanut butter out of the jar before throwing the jar away. In short, this very well might be just the sort of mercenary play for cash that I truly don't believe CCP uses very much, but which I know a lot of you out there do.

And now the winds are blowing. My, are they! On Twitter, a fan of DUST 514 commented that the DUST faithful feel like they've been taken to the Red Wedding. This strikes me as an absolutely apt analogy. Put more simply, the very first post in the announcement thread on the DUST forums states "Thanks for using us and trashing us. Makes us feel good."

Let me be blunt. In my not so humble opinion, the announcement for this change was done in the most self-serving and cynical way possible. It announces what is essentially the death of the existing DUST 514 in front of a friendly EVE audience primed to react joyously for the press in attendance. It answered no questions whatsoever from the existing player base and in fact avoided those questions. The short presentation was tilted in such a way that any angry mutterings that might have started would not have time to take root; the whole thing was over in 37 minutes.

Hell, when the thing ended, hundreds of people in the auditorium looked around at each other clearly asking "Is that it? Is it over?"

Afterward, I caught a DUST developer with which I have a really good relationship and asked "Is CCP going to rebrand DUST 514 to EVE Legion?" He stammered a bit and wouldn't answer the question. Then I asked "Will the existing PS3 players get to keep their skill points in the new release?" He wouldn't take that one, either. And these are #2 and #1 on the list of the most obvious questions that will need answering. #3 is "Is CCP still worried about cannibalizing their base?" I didn't bother asking that one.

Anyway, that's it for the DUST 514 keynote. More about the rest of Fanfest day two later today. I think I'll go watch EVE Movie Morning!

(1) And as an aside, if anything proves that the NDA works and that EVE and DUST players bound to it will keep CCP's secrets no matter what those are, this is it. Doubtful CCP devs, please take note.


  1. Scraping the bottom of the peanut butter jar you say?
    It's been a great dick move by CCP. One of their best. Dust players still don't have the faintest idea what the future of Dust will be even in the short term.

    As I've said around the place a bit, I expect one to two more content packs, first being whatever they're working on now with the second optional one being whatever doesn't make it into the first but they don't want to completely drop.

    Can I suggest you go find this guy and buy him a beer. Iceland is a long way to travel to be told to go fuck yourself.

    1. CCPgames: FU give me Money

  2. I honestly feel bad about Dust players that made the trip. That has to hurt. I'm hoping CCP gives some answers today.

  3. Yeah it was incredibly badly done (and I speak as a Dust player).

    What makes things worse is that CCP is still trying to get the last bits of cash out of Dust players by insisting that it will continue as a separate product.

    And yet not one single upcoming feature for Dust514 was mentioned.

  4. A guy named CCP Rogue is good at back stabbing? Who would have thought?

    1. red as in warning...

    2. The blog post should have been titled "Rouge Wedding" for maximum trolling. :)

  5. The DUST 514 Sandbox:


  6. So... FanFest is essentially CCP's own bonus room for Dust players (the ones who got there). Good going, CCP.

  7. I am a Dust player and EVE player. Have been playing Dust from the very beginning.

    Honestly, Legion on PC is the only way the Dust dream can ever be realized, consoles being too restricting. That said, this has been done in the worst posible way.

    All those players that have endured Dust the last 2 years, just because they trusted on the potential of the game, have been told to go fuck themselves by CCP. I doubt very much that any of them will ever get into another CCP product.

    The problema is that those are the kind of harcore players that Legion needs to survive.

    1. Legion already exists, and it's called Planetside 2.

    2. I've played Dust 514 since closed Beta. Having played Everquest in the past I had no problem spending $20+ a month on merc packs. I thought of it as an investment in the game. I liked their model... instead of paying $69 one time for a game and being stuck with what was originally put out as is... Dust 514 promised constant evolution and improvements. I believed what the dev's said about where the game was going. (integration into eve where not only could eve players bombard dust but we could shoot eve players, massive maps and massive player battles, PS Vita Neocom ("this is a real thing we are working on, not vaporware") I bought into the dream CCP was selling given their long run with EVE 10+ years. I was looking forward to Dust 514 reveals at fanfest.

      I understand the consoles limitations and was not able to handle what CCP's vision for the game should be and understand that they are a business and have to make a profit to exist.... some explanation and openess may have softened the blow but the way they handled this was a knife in the gut.

      Even though it seems like they will be able to realize their vision on PC their handling of this situation has left me with a lack of trust for the company I once admired. How can I believe the dream they are selling for Project Legion? #lostfaithinccp

      Dust got me interested in trying out Eve. Now I am too leary to continue investing my time and money or even think of doing it with Valkyrie.

  8. You know, I didn't care about DUST much. I don't play FPS games. I got interested yesterday, since I already have a PC, because if I'm going to try out an FPS it's going to be in the EVE universe. This seemed like a good move and a potential game-changer for CCP.

    Hadn't considered what it would almost certainly mean for the DUSTies. C'mon, CCP: do 'em right. If you're going to make them buy PCs, give them an enormous discount on the Legion software. At the very, very least, let them port existing characters over.

    Fail to do these things, and I won't be purchasing Legion.

    1. Hear, hear!

    2. Anyone who waited would know now that CCP is going to migrate DUSTies over to Legion... This was announced at CCP Presents. And really... with no more than approx 9000 players ever on at once... and with ALLof us crying for DUST to be on the PC originally, DUST on console wasn't ever going to be what CCP or anyone hoped, but Legion,on the PC has a real chance to get REALLY integrated IN EVE.

      If you don't wanna play DUST on the PC... I guess I roll out the oldest meme in EVE.... HTFU.

  9. I am an avid DUST 514 player. I put over 200 dollars into the game and a shit load of time because I wanted to be ready when DUST was what it promised to be. I argued with people on the forums, convinced others to play, all on the premise of "it is not great now but it is going to be amazing." The fact that the entire promise of DUST 514 is now a completely separate game, this Project Legion, has me incredibly angry. I cannot believe that a DUST 514 keynote speech was all "you guys are a great community!" and then talked about a completely new project. By the way, it wasn't 39 minutes; not really. The speech was 15 minutes later. The thing lasted 24 minutes with 2 minutes of it being a CEOPyrex video (a DUST 514 youtuber).

    If your statements are true, this is honestly the most disrespectful thing I have ever seen a company be with their customers. I have never said it before but now I have no other words to describe how I feel: "Fuck you CCP."

    1. If I was one of the people you convinced to play DUST, then today I wouldn't be mad at CCP. I'd be mad at YOU. You were the one waving the pom poms and drinking the Kool-Aid. You told me it was going to be amazing. You told people who disagreed with you that they didn't know what they were talking about, and you called them haters.

      So CCP botched the announcement. Big deal. DUST was DOA to begin with. The only person you should be angry with is yourself tbqfh.

    2. "I trusted your company to actually do what they promised. Fuck me, right?"

  10. By having to use Unreal Engine for most of their products CCPgames upper management must have had to swallow a lot of humble pie, and them still using the word CARBON at day one of fanfest 2014 sounds cynical at best.

    "If you create a games or commercial applications using UDK for sale or distribution to an end-user or client, or if you are providing services in connection with a UDK based game or application, the per-seat option does not apply. Instead the license terms for this arrangement are US$99 up-front, and a 0% royalty on you or your company’s first US$50,000 in UDK related revenue from all your UDK based games or commercial applications, and a 25% royalty on UDK related revenue from all your UDK based games or commercial applications above US$50,000."

    For now Eve Online still runs on Destiny (the simulation engine in eve) and Trinity (the graphics engine in eve) one has to wonder how future proof the investments in time and effort CCPgames put into the CARBON technology will be, keeping WoD in mind.

    Regards, a Freelancer


  11. why would anyone still trust these guys? some of you eve fanboys have gone so deep into the rabbit hole you cant smell the shit being thrown in your faces...

    do the eve players really think this isn't going to effect them?

    ccp will eventually fuck you all as well, and it isn't like they haven't in the past, but I can say with absolute 100% assurance:

    winter is coming....

    1. Eve players have 11 years of being screwed by CCP.

      The thing is, for many Eve players Dust was one of those things that screwed us over. Millions and Millions of dollars spent on a game that didn't affect us flying in ships at all. HUGE amounts of dev time and management focus taken from Eve and poured into Dust. Top this off with the same thing happening with World of Darkness. Most of the money that was spent on Eve actually went to Incarna and had nothing to do with us flying in ships.

      It took the Eve players going into full revolt and almost taking the whole company down to force CCP to sort their shit out. Sadly for Dust players, you don't have the economic clout to force CCP to do anything.

    2. You only had to see how empty the Saturday More Sand in the Box for DUST 514 Session was, to see how the Dust514 Mercenaries feel.

      If this will results in another Incarna level event, I for one welcome it again, purchasing power to the players vs (not yet) evil companies \m/

    3. The thing is simple: Dust 514 do not matter because the game never catch momentum on consoles. Having the game a ps3 exclusive title was for sure not CCPs idea anyway, so you might be angry at the wrong guys.

      On the plus side, if Legion will get momentum and actually be able to stand on its own feet than it is very, very likely that features will get backported to dust 514 and maybe a ps4 edition of legion. So the whole announcement is realistically a plus for dust514 players, because the alternative would be a WoD style end.

  12. Well, my fellow DUST bunnies, you AT LEAST have got a game you can/could play.

    We the ones who trusted CCP about Walking in Stations/Incarna never ever got anything, despite how our money was paying for the development of your game (and WoD minions' too).

    So, welcome to the club. Make yourselves comfortable and leave the door open for whoever is next.

    1. After Incarna players themselves didn't want CCP to do WiS, see the above comment by Butt Hurt, so don't blame CCP for never continuing on that track.

    2. There were a lot of things that lead to the player revolt, and WiS was but one piece. I know some players never wanted it and don't want it further pursued. But I thought the bulk of the outrage came from the NEX store and the leaked document discussing microtransactions. It's unfortunate that WiS was so entangled in that debacle that it now has such a disdainful reputation.

      Don't get me wrong, it was crazy of CCP to release that feature with absolutely no gameplay attached to it. But I'd like to think it can be expanded on and improved. It's a feature I was certainly looking forward to, and it piqued the interests of some of my peers. Don't know if the devs have the balls any more though.

    3. I believe that the Incarna engine was incapable of actually displaying multiple players on anything like the scale required for WiS to work. To make it work would almost certainly require starting from scratch again.

    4. Anonymous 09:08:

      I've heard that half-lie, half-truth so many times that I would be space rich if I received 1,000 ISK each time.

      The truth, and it's a interesting one, is that 2011 was CCP's finest year ever, even after sustracting the Incarnageddon fallout. CCP was literally skyrocketing all the way to Incarna. *Someone* was buying a promise, won't you agree?

      And CCP really needed to pull it right. Their failure doomed EVE, not as in the way a shot to the head will doom yo, but in the way a crushed spleen will doom you. It will go bleeding and bleeding unnoticed, until hypovolemia leaves your brain without enough oxygen as you sleep. It may take hours, days or even a week, but that slow, hidden, persistent bleeding is gonna kill you.

      EVE's been bleeding in the dark as its limited niche couldn't feed her need for fresh blood. CCP not just abandoned WiS, but abandoned the attempts to push EVE out of its niche. First, they had that awful brachial artery, bleeding like a fountain. Crucible patched it right, thankfully. Then they had all those rotten teeth and the skin warts. And don't forget a disfunctional knee in need of a prosthetic replacement.

      Yet meanwhile, as they undertook the necessary maintenance, the game kept bleeding. Slowly, quietly, it was losing players. CCP reacted swiftly and spent most of 2012 and 2013 reselling the game to existing customers. Coming 2014, that has stopped working. PCU is going down and we may guess that subscriptions do the same. CCP announces a veteran recall program and shuts down WoD as it was about to go on NDA beta testing. They fire 12% of their staff before acknowledging any reduction of revenues and hold the big news for Fanfest: DUST is canned, expansions (aka glorified patches since 2012) are canned, and the big plans for 2015 are... well, they haven't been revealed yet, AFAIK. But looks like "all the game must go nullsec" is the theme.

      Yes, more EVE is what EVE needs to keep rotting in its niche. Expand the niche? No way! Go after a different kind of players? By God, this is EVE! HTFU or leave!

      And meanwhile, that naughty spleen keeps bleeding... bleeding... bleeding...

    5. @Anon 10:15

      Bingo. No WiS gameplay was bad (the closed door). The NEX store was worse ($1000 pants TROLOLO). But what absolutely killed WiS was the inability of most gaming rigs to handle the load of multiple high-res avatars walking around and interacting with each other. THAT is what killed WiS. The reports of overheating graphics cards were the tip of the iceberg.

    6. Gods... the sheer amount of juvenile entitled selfish whining going on about this is simply amazing and TBH makes me sick that I play a game with such immature (yea even the one over 21) children.

      EVE is a game, is it also the sole property and a product CCP sells for profit. ALL the ME ME ME ME and whine moan CCP SUX and CCP FUKS the players everytime BULLSHIT make me want to puke.

      CCP has created a MMO unlike ANY OTHER. One that everyone says has far deeper immersion, more actual sandbox freedom, more intense and deeper MMO crafting (read Industry), with a player driven and almost totally player run market the likes of which NO ONE has ever seen before... an MMO with more everything than any other MMO on the market and all of this given to us in graphics that are, in comparison to all other MMOs, almost photrealistic... AND that has lasted for 10 years with a steadier solid growth over that time than has ever been seen before... and they did ALL OF THIS in what everyone recognizes as an wide open PvP, griefing, scamming, thieving very niche gameplay game.

      ALL of you who lambast this company for not co-towing to what YOU feel is right and the CORRECT way to do this, need to immediately go and start a company and create this AMAZING game YOU would make cause yer all SOOOO much gods damned SMARTER than the people who have actually DONE IT... if you can't or won't then STFU. Period.

      CCP has done ALL of this and you all reap the benefits all of the work they, not you, they have done for 10 years (while dealing with the likes of you)... and repay them like this. You should all be ashamed.

      I for one am glad as hell they are finally giving us DUST on the PC. I am not a console player though I do have several and play them with my kids... Consoles are for instant gratification games... for games where you play for 15 minutes or a few hours and the adrenaline high is pretty much constant... PC games can be so much more as EVE is so very much more. And that depth and immersion INSIDE the EVE universe is my hope a dream for EVE.

      Plus I now hope that as CCP has comitted to continuing DUST on the console, it can be developed in the direct a CONSOLE game needs to go, instead of trying to force a console to act like a PC...

      And as for the Hell of WiS, OMG do I pray that DUST Legion is exactly that... only this time, instead of a human avatar without any content to use it in, which I feel was CCPs ONLY (IMHO) real mistake in Incarna... and anyone who doesn't ever want WiS in any form 'cause it aint Spasships'.... Well, 1. dam glad it aint up to you and 2. it WILL open EVE to a whole new playerbase, and 3. and increase CCPs income... all of which no matter what any fool thinks, are simply "good business". Pandering to a bunch of self obsessed entitled children, aint and never will be... thank god.

      I say thank you CPP, for the years of work and creativity, for the amazing games you have given us and for the games you want to... thank you. Please ignore the whiners.

    7. TurAmarth:

      If I was so comitted to a game who managed to lose 15% of their players in a year, I would be concerned about how to change course rather than cheer the developers as they do more of the same they were doing along the way to such decline.

      EVE is the best MMO I've ever played, but Null Security is not my piece of cake, and guess what? I can afford to play games that are not MMOs, and not-best MMOs, whereas CCP can't afford to lose the subscription money of everyone who doesn't buys EVE's Null Security endgame. I would had given them anything for an alternate endgame content, either in High Security or as a part of WiS. God knows I *still* would do it.

      But for "go nullsec or go away?". No deal.

    8. But it is only "Go Null or FU" if WE let it be that way... and I really and truly believe that is NOT how this is all going to wash out in the end... I'm a wormholer... I can't stand Empire and I HATE nullsec with a passion... and I am dependent on Industry for my good as anyone... I have watched every vid I up so far and I am do not think CCP is screwing us... I think they have a visoin of a greater game than just Hi, Low, Null and Negsec... And you said it, EVE IS the BEST MMO... so it stand to reason CCP is NOT out to fuk us over... that makes no sense at all. I mean seriously... it doesn't.

      I honestly believe it is not a big middle finger to Hi and Low...and I hate all the people who while playing this game at the same time feel it is OK to malign and cuss at the company that MADE it for them... it's like slapping your mother in the face for having you.

      The main reason people might unsub is posts and comments like this one. NO I am not advocating being a Yes Man for CCP... but for gods sake people... they MADE the game... they deserve credit, and yes... some respect and thanx, for EVERYTHING they have done RIGHT... the rest should take the form of discussion... not raging childish sophomoric tantrums and incredibly unacceptable rude behavior.

      As for losing 15% in a year... that's after 10 YEARS of steady growth...no other MMO has ever done that... and I believe, the Industry shake up, DUST Legion and Valkyrie actually might turn that around... (of course, one can hope the Dimsadales of EVE do actually quit and leave us with less tinfoil and juvenile ranting...)

      WoW has gone from something like 8 mil to 6 or something... I have a chart in a recent post... all MMOs have a lifespan... EVE's is simply, and I dearly hope, longer than any other so far.But only if WE do it... and this aint helping at all... DO you WANT the game to fail?? In part, it is up to us...

    9. @TurAmarth:

      CCP Seagull's roadmap is not exactly a good roadmap for those not in a nullsec alliance. There is nothing at all that hints that the new stargates will be accesible to hi-lo-WH players... nor to casuals nor soloers nor anyone who is not a Goon, to be frank.

      If I had been at Fanfest, I would had asked her openly "what's in the stargates for players who don't relate to large nullsec alliances?".

      Because I think that CCP just convinced themselves that nullsec players are the most loyal customers and so the best way to improve retention is to improve nullsec even if that takes resources from everything else.

      Think of it, what's the only NEW content looming in the horizon? Player built gates and "new space".

      And how's that being pitched? "players gang together, middle-finger Empires and undertake a massive collective effort to conquer the new land shoulder by shoulder against the other players who also gang together".

      Doesn't sounds like hisec. Nor lowsec. Nor WH. Doesn't sounds like something a noob would do. Nor someone with limited time. Nor someone who likes playing on his own.

      All the above will get iterated shit (and probably lose some content as nullsec gets the lion's share).

      And who's to oppose CCP? The CSM? Players who quit in silence?

    10. @TurAmarth

      You seem to be either unwilling or unable to grasp the concept that just maybe the CCP that made EVE Online is not the same CCP which currently controls its future. People change, goals change, visions change, and companies change. The CCP we have now is heading in a vastly different direction than the CCP that first envisioned EVE. That is what upsets us; we are invested in this game, and those who have the control over it are threatening to make it into a shadow of its former self. Yes, I will protest this. I will remind CCP what visions and promises they presented to us in the past, and insist that they keep to such things rather than moving in directions detrimental to the survival of this game. If we as players continue to go unheard, then I will be the most vocal I can be by refusing to further fund CCP's efforts to destroy the game their predecessors created.

    11. "what's in the stargates for players who don't relate to large nullsec alliances?".

      I have to admit, it does "look" a little like that... I have even voiced the same concerns myself... maybe someone needs to pose just that question to CCP... and do so over and over and over again and again until we get an answer.

      But raging and cussing and lambasting CCP as all fuktards and idiots is, if anything, counterproductive... don't you think? I mean that have never SAID Nullsec is the "End Game", "Go Null of go play WoW" now have they? Has ANYONE in CCP? Nope... So any who say that is the be all and end all of CCPs plans is just Dimsdaling his ass off. It's all tinfoil and CT until they say of actually DO something 'definitive' in that direction... and yes, if the Player Built Stargate ends up actually being a null only 'thing' and to get involved you have to kowtow to the Null Lords, then I'll just climb back in my hole... and pull it in after me leaving a big ASCII 'Finger' in local when I do...

      But no matter how much those of us who don't play there or even like the idea of Nullsec, it IS important to CCP. It is that area of the game that is, for better or worse, totally player controlled and that IS, again for better or worse, that segment of the game that gets the most publicity and as such is VERY important to CCP for that very fact... just look at the Great BR Noob Spike... CCP NEEDS that publicity, no one can deny that.

      These are facts we all have to live with. What WE, the Hi,Low and Negsec playerbase wants is for CCP to not lose us and our gameplay in the noise and furor over Nullsec.

      Actually, if one thinks on it, having Hi, Low (Empire Space) and Negsec (Anoikis) as areas (playerbases) that ARE 'against' (as we see them) the Great Ebil in Nullsec, gives a tension and a balance to all of EVE. Burn Jita and the Ice Interdiction's are just 2 very visible ways in which Empire Space acts as a counter/battlefield to/for the Empires vs Nullsec.

      And players who quit in silence deserve all the 'notice' they get. If you don't care enough to speak up, so bad for you. EVE is a social game, and I don't mean 'Join Gewns or FU' social, I mean get INVOLVED social... Blog, Post, VOTE for the CSM of your choice, Comment on forums make your voice and opinion known to CCP... why do you think I'm here?

      CCP does read the forums and blogs and such... and I, a simple wormholer, who cares nothing for what goes on in Empire or Null... but still I care deeply for the GAME. And all parts are needed for the whole to be healthy.

    12. @Anon-2:22
      WOW… really? Then mebbe you need to take a remedial reading for comprehension course. I not only grasp the emergent player driven “The players ARE the content” MMO that is EVE, I revel in it. Of course EVE is not the game CCP first imagined… that has been stated over and over again and again… CCP has said many times that the emergent gameplay has changed the direction of EVE and they embrace this, they feel it is the future of sandbox MMO gaming. That does not mean, in any respect, that they now PLAN to get rid of Hisec, Lowsec or CONCORD. That has never been stated…

      What they HAVE said is the ‘Empires are losing control’… IE in the Lore of EVE (a method used to 1. explain things in EVE and as 2 a driver for conflict IE PvE, PvP, etc.) the (NPC) Empires balance of power is shifting as regards the “Empyreans” (Capsuleers, IE US)… NOT as regards NULLSEC alone. Again, THAT has never been stated at any time by anyone in CCP. Those who feel this way are reading a LOT about the future course of our game into changes that seem to (and I can cite knowledgeable arguments against) ‘highly’ profit Nullsec at the ‘cost’ of Empire players… changes that they disagree with, period.

      …threatening to make it into a shadow of its former self…
      How? Link me the page/quote/vid where this is said by anyone at CCP. Nope… this is your reaction to changes you don’t like that you see as taking the game in a direction you don’t like… not a clear statement of anything from CCP.

      I will protest this.
      Kudos!!! Please do and keep at it… just get your FACTS straight from imagined tinfoil generated conspiracy theories first ok? Work and argue with the facts, and you’ll hear naught from me but applause… scream juvenile abuse from the sidelines about made up, imagined possibilities… and you shall be quoted as one of “them”.

      … directions detrimental to the survival of this game.
      I hope you will listen carefully to all of what I say next…
      If I may, “…detrimental to the survival of YOUR game”. IE the way you want to play EVE. I too do not want a Nullsec centric EVE Online, EVER. And I will post and bog and comment against that as strongly, but also as knowledgeably, ‘rationally’ and absolutely as vociferously as possible. But I will only do so WHEN such changes are announced and acted on in a ‘clear and present danger’ kinda way… I will NOT ever do so against :tinfoil: and Conspiracy Theories… that makes us sound like idiots.

      …refusing to further fund CCP's efforts to destroy the game their predecessors created.
      Unsubbing is a quiet, and to me, an extreme method of protest. Unsubbing takes you out of the conversation. CCP will listen to its ‘paying customers’ far more readily than someone (like Poe) screaming epithets from the sidelines… I will unsub only when it is no longer worth trying to change CCPs minds. That’s what Mord Fiddle has already done and I am hopeful he will be proved wrong in the end.

      Find me a quote from a CCP Dev/Exec that states that ALL of EVE will be/needs to be Nullsec space and I will agree with you… until then, as I see it and read it and hear it from CCP, ALL of EVE, Hi, Low, Null and Negsec are still important gameplay spaces to them.

    13. @TurAmarth

      One of us needs to learn reading comprehension, but I'm pretty sure it isn't me.

      I wasn't arguing whether EVE was the game it started out as; I stated that it was CCP that was no longer the same company that had created it - too many of the minds behind the game have moved on, and of those who remain, their vision of the game has changed from what it once was.

      You credit the CCP of today with the creation of EVE as it is now; I credit the CCP of yesterday with the creation, and I protest any effort of the CCP of today to destroy yesterday's vision. You seem to imply that because CCP made the game, they have no responsibility to hold true to the promises they made when they sold it to us on that vision, and as customers who bought into that vision, we have no right to complain when they change course and break those promises. This is the point I contest vehemently.

  13. Spent hundreds of dollars on this game being told it will be around in Eve's universe for ever. Now they are scrapping everything I spent on a 10 year promise and throwing it into a different game WITHOUT transfering my efforts I put into the character.

    CCP can go @#$@# themselves with that french @#$@hole.

    1. http://i.imgur.com/1L9fQZq.jpg

      Regards, a Freelancer

    2. uh... they are going to let you migrate your DUST Char.... seriously, look before you open mouth and chew foot.

  14. In the round table they pretty much said that they haven't decided how to transition players from dust to legion. Legion doesn't have skill system yet

    1. Hahaha, this will be another 5 year development debacle. They'll change engines a couple of times. Maybe even try to use their Incarna/Carbon code to avoid paying royalties to other engine developers. By the time it's ready for beta the intended audience will be people other than the DUSTies that just got shafted.

      I put the over-under on when the DUST servers will be unplugged at 12 months.

  15. its a shame CCPMintchiplol is no longer a DUST customer liaison. would have been nice to see her take all the heat from this.

  16. This is mainly a epic communication fail.

    The message I've received so far:
    The keynote:
    Eve Legion is our new concept of an New Eden FPS and it's coming to PC near your
    The legion dev blog:
    Dust 514 and Legion will be separate experiences
    The Progression presentation:
    CCP Z hates everything EVE in DUST/Legion and is planning to take it out
    - Dropsuits as non-consumable
    - Equipment classes and weapon classes strictly limited to certain class

    They really should have started the keynote with "This is how we fucked up, PS3 can take us only so far. We are not going to kill the Dust we have now, but we can't do what we want to do and need to do on PS3 so the solution is this...."

    And then go to Legion and the demo.

    I bought a PS3 to play DUST with, but I'm still on board with leaving it somewhat behind. What I'm more worried about is simplifications presented at the progression talk. It might be true that the current DUST system is too complex for the FPS market.

    I might be ok with simplifying the progression so that you have to level logistic role tree to open demolition and remote rep stuff and I might be able the get behind dropsuits being nonconsumable provided that the benefits they give are toned down. BUT dropping the dream of heavy frame snipers and the depth that comes from the EVE like fitting system just to make it simpler totally cuts the ties with EVE.

    I'm really praying that they will change their mind on that.

  17. If Eve players want something to relate to. Let's wonder what the reaction would be if some new executive producer comes along and decides the current progression system in Eve needs to be scrapped and doesn't appear to be concerned at all about existing players and the time and money they've spent. What if they decide Eve 2.0 needs to start with everyone at the same SP level? Then imagine you had to earn your SP through actually playing. That you were pushed boosters and events to accelerate progression.

    1. Would not be surprised CCPgames will do this soon, to better compete now that other companies want a part of Eve's niche marketplace.

    2. It would be sad but it wouldn't be earth-shattering.

      What dustbunnies and WiS fans have in common is that they didn't actually pay for the game for what it is but for what it might become one day. And that's just plain stupid given CCP's track record.

      As long as you stick to one commonsense rule, "Don't pay for a game that you don't enjoy.", the game developer can shut down your favorite game or replace it with some pay2win abomination and you will have received your money's worth.

      I fully expect EVE to turn to shit sooner or later. The entire industry is going down the microtransactions road and CCP will eventually follow.
      We *will* see "PLEX for Remap" eventually, we *will* see "PLEX for SP reassignment" (with a 10% or so loss) not long after. We *will* see AUR boosts to skill training speed.
      To me the only question is if we will arrive at that point in two years or in three.

      But I still have 5 active EVE accounts. Because getting 60 days of playtime of the game that *currently exists* for $35 is a good deal in my opinion.
      And if EVE is turned into a microtransactions paradise 61 days down the road then these 60 days will still have been worth the $35 I spent on them.

      It's commonsense.

  18. Was this not expected that it would be ported to play or ps4?
    Onve that was done how would it be supported on ps3.

    This was expected.

  19. Competition with planetside 2 will be harsh but as a ps2 player I look forward to it.

    1. To be fair, at CCP's development pace, it'll be competing with Planetside 3.

    2. Planetside 2 is completely dull. Harsh is not really the right word.
      And don´t get me wrong, the combat actually works just fine in PS2, it just that the sandbox is is lacking all tools outside of FPS combat. The sandbox is no sandbox but a repetitive arena game which forces you to ... oh wait, you can teleport anyway to the next action near you.

      Planetside is no real competition for CCP, all CCP has to do is not screw up their combat mechanics and grow everything else around it to make it a true eve-universe game.

  20. PC gaming master race,
    punching console peasants in the face

  21. gotta be kidding me. A: you know whats wrong with dust (about 6 people control 95% of the controlable land. B: nearly every mechanic was broken. And you want what? A: transfer skill points so anyone actually interested in picking up "legion" will be 2 years behind 4000 people who scamed DUST? B: you really want to start legion with a broken mechanic in place?

    The only way forward with FPS eve based game was a total reset. If you can't see that, if people couldn't see that then the blinders are over their eye completly. A total non FPS person could look at it come to those conclusions.

  22. I followed this a lot yesterday, and regardless of how one feels about Dust and if this is a good development path, this has been handled in the worse possible way.

    So the CSM had been told about the death of Dust, a few months before CCP told Dust players at Eve Vegas that they where "laser focused" on Dust development (and it's promised ten year development)? Either way CCP should never have allowed some Dust players to fly themselves to Iceland only to have the supposed panels about the game they love be only about Legion. They have answered hardly any questions from Dust players, they have been silent on the forums (other than locking threads) and have generally treated the Dust community with dismissive, condescending arrogance.

    After the explosion on the Dust forums CCP put together a hasty Twicth interview that rather than answer any of the questions and concerns of Dust Players, instead turned into one long condescending "they just don't understand our vision" fest.

    Personally i thought the Dust community was the biggest bunch of CCP fanboys ever. They where addicted to a rather crapy game, yet loved it and the company that made it. They spent a year (longer if in beta) putting up with and trying to help work out bugs and balance while grinding SP for characters they thought would be around for a decade and trying to build a community. These are the exact customers you would want as a company. They are the exact people you would want to help promote Legion. These where the exact people you want helping to build the Legion community. Instead, most of these people are biomassing and asking Sony for Aurum refunds while ragging publicly telling potential new customers never trust CCP or buy their products. Good job CCP.

    This was handled astounding bad even by CCP standards!

    1. CCP is not evil yet

    2. Well, they pulled quite a SOE here.

  23. I have no interest in Dust but was incredulous at the terrible way this was handled. After all this time, with so many blunders and mis-steps in their past, wtf is wrong with CCP's corporate mentality that they can't foresee or don't care about the fallout that their thoughtless, careless, self-centered attitude generates among their customers? It's almost like they're doing a psych experiment to see just how far they can push people before they snap. If nothing else, the least they could do is explain why they can't yet or maybe won't answer the key questions your post identifies. There is a time and a place for a "HTFU" attitude and it's not in the way you treat your customers when difficult decisions are made that will affect their investment in and emotional attachment to your products.

    I assume that CSM advised them to take a different tack and that as has happened so often in the past, the advice was ignored.

    Very happy overall with what is happening with and planned for Eve but I still can't respect CCP's upper management very much given how badly they continue to handle "vision" decisions like this one. That's why I'll never again be anything other than a very casual Eve player.

    1. This is very machiavellian of CCP's upper echelon management, one has to question these decisions in the light of cost reductions for a profit based company.

      Maybe we need to think in this way like the need to HAVE a reason to release staff before releasing some staff, like when CCP Unifex was send to check up on WoD, and later on he left CCP.

    2. We did indeed advise a different way of presenting this. Multiple times. At length. In concert with the CPM.

    3. To Anon 10:02: I do not (necessarily) question the bottom line wisdom of changing development priorities. Companies do what they must to serve that bottom line (although in CCP's case, they seem to spend a fair chunk of money on misguided efforts). My gripe is with the arguably cavalier manner in which this development shift was delivered, with no measure of diplomacy nor expressed concern for invested players who will be negatively impacted by it.

      Thanks Jester for expanding upon what you inferred in your post. I assumed as much. It doesn't surprise me (in a been-there-done-that kind of way).

    4. I agree, hence why it's so chilling (machiavellian as I said).

      Thank you BayneNothos for showing us this now locked Dust forum post.

      Reposted it on the eve forums to show some support, and my opinion.


      And probably concerning this type of higher echelon management in companies, we might see some kind of blog about it from Unifex soon.

    5. Follow up post, source: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/05/03/eve-fanfest-2014-ccp-responds-to-dust-514-rage-over-project-leg/

      Earlier today at the CCP Presents keynote presentation, CCP took the opportunity to respond to fears and complaints that have surfaced on the DUST 514 community forum. The official word is that DUST 514 isn't being shuttered and that development will continue, but CCP admitted that it will have less development time going forward. A promise was also made that if Legion goes ahead, the names and assets of every DUST player will be copied over to the new title. That won't be much consolation for the people who bought a PS3 just to play DUST 514 or those who game only on consoles, as Legion is currently being developed only for PC. Another caveat is that Legion has not even been confirmed yet; It was presented in much the same style as EVE: Valkyrie last year, as an experiment that CCP could put significant resources into if players like it.

      Regards, a Freelancer

      PS: the CCP/Sony pay wall of a Playstation 3 console paid for Dust514 ?

    6. @Anon-1:49
      The thread was reopened...

  24. Seriously, the writing was on the wall since the very beginning. There was no way a console FPS by CCP could last, only a couple hopeful idio... blind people like Jester thought it would ever be the tail that wags the dog.

    It is not schadenfreude I feel for the Dust players, I just think they were oblivious to the obvious and are now having to face the inevitable.

    If I see one problem with these events is to see CCP still putting effort in an enterprise fated for failure. There is absolutely no chance CCP can compete in the FPS market, be it in the console or PC; they are only deluding themselves. They do not have the experience, aptitude, positioning or financial backing to undertake this. They won't be able to compete even with Planetside, let alone the more established franchises, CoD, MW, BF. It is not even a matter of aiming for scraps, these are all catching the scraps of one another already.

    As certain as the sun will rise tomorrow, Eve Legion (or whatever it will called) is also fated for failure.

    1. I just find it interesting that CCP still thinks thay can pull up that trick. What's going to be different aside from the medium? Same company. Same godawful management. Same horribly competitive market.

      It just doesn't makes sense. They've shelved two games in two months and yet off they go with a second take on their latest flop...

    2. For me it is schadenfreude that I'm wryly enjoying. I'm looking forward to not seeing the inane chatter of the dusties in their highsec staging systems every time I pass through. Talk about checking your IQ at the stargate, wow it's pretty bad. Juvenile doesn't begin to describe it.

  25. Crowd Control Productions indeed. There is no excuse for the degree of ineptitude shown by whomever is responsible for this announcement. There is no excuse for the person in charge of corporate branding and message to let his information be presented in the manner it was.

    This was just wrong!

  26. http://jestertrek.blogspot.com.br/2014/03/derecognized.html

    It was indeed Dust, not WoD.

    1. yes, I am also wondering if this was in reference to Dust and not WoD. I assume it is Dust, judging from what Jester said in the referenced post, in this post, and in the comments.

      Can you confirm, Jester?


  27. Hello everyone,

    I haven't played Eve in months, and had no intention of playing ever again, but Dust on PC could bring me back to the game.

    I am going to be frank here. This is what should have been done in the first place. The fact that this game was not developed for PC using CCP's WiS graphics engine as a base was such a massive development blunder it left me dumbfounded.

    All PR issues aside, (CCP has an abominable track record on communication) I know its hard for current players, but leaving Dust on an extinct console to wither and die was not the right choice.

    Sometimes righting the ship is painful, but it must be done. -GJ CCP

    1. "The fact that this game was not developed for PC using CCP's WiS graphics engine as a base was such a massive development blunder it left me dumbfounded."

      The fact is that the WiS engine wasn't (and still isn't) ready for production use. This is why CCP is using Unreal Engine 4 for Valkyrie.

      What you see in CQ in EVE is about the limit of what can be done today with the WiS engine. Good for space barbies, but not FPS.

      WoD was attempting to take it further, but CCP really could not afford to keep developing it. Now, it is nothing but a write off on the financial statements.

  28. I bought a PS3 to play Dust. Is there someone at CCP I can mail a PS3 filled with bullet holes to?

    I get it, I do. I want a better game that's more connected to Eve. If this is how that happens fine, but they really need to think about how they handle Dust players.

    1. Just put that bullet in your own head. If you and the other Dust players were too stupid to realize that Dust was destined to be sh*t-canned, then you all got what you deserved. Suck it up and move on, losers. EVE isn't the only harsh place - RL has its moments, too.

  29. As big an announcement as this was, I'm not surprised at all. In fact, the most surprising aspect to me is that it took so many people by surprise! It was obvious that DUST wasn't attracting the huge playerbase CCP was counting on. It had to be commissar'ed, and the sooner the better. That CCP procrastinated with the formal announcement doesn't surprise me either.

    So maybe the big CCP writeoff of capitalized development costs was for World Of Darkness AND DUST 514?

    1. Ripard Teg called with this post from croda of marketsforISK in April junk drawer:


  30. Badly done, but necessary. When you pioneer a vision you are going to get snagged on the thickets of trial and error. There is no plain sailing. Sure folk are going to bitch about how much their feet hurt when you turn them around to re-trace your steps but I has to be done to get to where you are going. Those briar aint half going to sting tho. There is no salve for wounded pride.
    However, I have forgiveness in my heart due to: Katee Sackhoff.

  31. Wow. If all of this is correct, I feel royally fucked over. Been playing eve since 2005 on and off and dust from the very beginning which I prefer especially as its on console and easier to pick up and play.
    Very disappointed with ccp, never thought they would be another EA.
    Its Earth n Beyond and Star Wars all over again. Oh well I was playing too much anyway haha. Cheers 4 the ride CCP.

  32. Hahahahaa.... and I think back to all of you fools who have posted comments saying how well Dust has been doing and that CCP will continue to support it.

    CCP's been losing money on Dust since day one, and the only reason they didn't shelve it earlier was due to the contractual agreement they made with Sony, which ends this year.

    I do congratulate CCP, though, in the way they handled it. There was no possible way to spin this announcement to put a better face on it, and they didn't waste much effort on trying to do so. Too bad they can't be as honest to the player base about the f**k ups they have been hatching in EVE.

    1. EvE Valkyrie could be a one day fly to, compared to a decade of Eve Online :)
      Hope CCP don't tie it to much into eve and ruin any future development plans.

  33. you know being both a pc gamer and a console gamer equally I think I have insight that those who exclusively play on either or, don't have.

    yes! this was the best choice for ccp considering the monumental task they wish to achieve, connecting 2 totally separate, and different types of games into one universe.
    they never should have even attempted to go to console when they didn't know anything about console gaming and programing and they already had a player base on PC. that was their first mistake.

    BUT! they did go to console and they promised people a 10 year development plan and they included a micro transaction store for console players to invest in that development and their characters.

    this right here is the problem I don't think the PC community understands...
    the console people bought into CCP's dream and followed them loyally. stuck with them patch after bad patch, pouring their hearts and souls into feedback and testing and spending real money in that microtransaction store which was constantly encouraged by ccp through boosters, bpo's, and events that required AUR items to participate in.

    while the eve players scoffed at Dust and it's player base, the Dust players tirelessly worked on trying to help CCP realize a dream that the mercs on the ground now believed in as well.

    last week that dream was crushed and to add insult to injury, there was no thought given to all those dust players that worked on this game, no "whats next" no plan for them... just silence... dust players who paid to go to fanfest, dust players who bought the hd live stream, dust players who just started playing eve excited to go deeper down the rabbit hole, dust players who spent hundreds of dollars on Dust 514, were dismissed like garbage, and then laughed at by the EVE community...which is ironic considering the backstabs they've suffered by ccp (like incarna) you would think they'd have been understanding and sympathetic.

    the anger stems from betrayal and utter disrespect. who here in the community would stand for that when directed at them? none of you...

    CCP made a great game in EVE, but that game took 10 years to get to this point and it still has tons of issues, and with the cancellation of WOD and now this debacle with DUST, they have rewound the clocks to 2009 offering the exact same promise they did with Dust and people are eating it up! really!?!? how can anyone still have faith in them?

    I for one am done with CCP, only a fool would stick around IMO...

    1. OH... yer leaving? So no more negative juvenile comments from Anon??? Oh happy friggin day!!!


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